Chat record from Blue/Green Carbon Workshop, March 17, 2021

We have converted the Zoom chat record into an easily readable format. Answers to questions that were posed in the chat and addressed on camera have been transcribed from the video recordings and embedded into the record. The spoken responses by presenters and panelists have been edited for readability and placed in the transcript where they best fit the conversation.

On March 17, 2021, Transition Salt Spring, Raincoast Conservation Foundation, and Brinkman Earth Systems hosted a virtual workshop exploring opportunities for blue and green carbon projects to help finance Indigenous-led stewardship of the Coastal Douglas-fir and marine forests that sustain the Salish Sea. The workshop was recorded and converted into a series of webinars which can be freely accessed here. Attendees were encouraged to use the Zoom chat function throughout the workshop, which resulted in some highly educational and enriching conversation about nature-based climate projects. 

We have converted the Zoom chat record into an easily readable format. Answers to questions that were posed in the chat and addressed on camera have been transcribed from the video recordings and embedded into the record. The spoken responses by presenters and panelists have been edited for readability and placed in the transcript where they best fit the conversation. All direct messages saved in the chat record and any messages regarding technical difficulties have been removed. 

[09:39:11] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: We are eager to help develop partnerships with groups, landowners with First Nations taking a strong lead.  All questions welcome.  This will be a critical solution area to address climate change.

[09:59:16] Gordon Elliott: Good Day, my name is Gord Elliott, I am the Director of Operations for the WSANEC Leadership Council. Thank you for the presentation, I have to step out for about a half hour due to schedule conflict. I am supportive of the dialogue and presentation today. I look forward to coming back for the rest of the presentations.

[10:01:08] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Transition Salt Spring is pro logging.  Pro regenerative forestry that is!

[10:02:22] Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: Thank you Elizabeth May, yes benefits to support leaving all remaining old-growth standing is critical right now.

[10:06:13] Gary Holman, CRD Director: In the Gulf Islands, the primary emphasis should be on land protection, not better logging practices.

[10:07:28] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: We’ve started thinking about that as place protection in the Trust, how are we holistically managing and protecting these islands? is the question.

[10:11:41] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation : How shifting climate patterns are impacting forest regeneration: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/10/is-this-the-end-of-forests-as-weve-known-them?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Twiitti

[10:11:56] From Gary Holman, CRD Director: Can a carbon offset strategy be included in the Islands Trust Conservancy projects to be funded by the federal government?

Answer from Garry Wouters: If it is a new project, then clearly you should build into that project your goal of dealing with carbon offsets and carbon sequestration, and build that into your model. If it’s a project that is already in place and you want to go back and re-define it as a protected area, you’re going to have difficulty because of the principle of additionality. 

  • Some additions from Deb Morrison and Gary Holman regarding the potential funding opportunities available to the Trust for implementing carbon projects (See webinar here)   

Answer from Joseph Pallant: A technical answer to this question, fleshing it out and hearing that the federal government has funded aspects of the Conservancy work…  I think part of this question was actually around: Could offsets from this project fit into the federal offset system that is being developed? 

I guess that would have to go through the BC Forest Carbon Offset Protocol 2.0 (once it’s ready) because that is expected to make eligible units for use in the federal government’s intensity-based cap and trade program.  I think it is a great question to explore. Could a project on this landscape, with  the available or upcoming protocols, issue credits that could sell into the federal system? 

We see that the federal system’s top line price is going to escalate to $170/tonne by 2030, so depending on how tight that market is and what the demand is, it could go up to that amount. Though, that’s not necessarily going to happen. We’ve been looking at 5, 10, 20, 30 dollars a tonne in our gut checks for what’s feasible for an offset project and if we do have a durable change in value and demand for carbon credits, for emissions reductions in Canada, we may be able to go back to the table, back to our gut. I do think this is a worthy landscape and a worthy project type to be considering and I do understand that is a reasonable part of the focus of people bringing together this workshop. 

Answer from Dirk Brinkman: The question of the Islands Trust engaging in an eelgrass project requires a condition: in the intertidal zone and up to the low water mark this is provincial territory, so we are now on Crown land. Therefore the Islands Trust would have to find the partnership of the Indigenous people because you are reaching into the nature of the biotic dynamics and the Indigenous Rights and Title. So, yes that’s possible and absolutely it’s what the federal government wants, these kinds of projects. But what you would need is more than consultation, you would need a true partnership because you are reaching forward 100 years. The fundamental answer to the question is yes but, yes, but… but there needs to be that partnership.  

[10:13:15] From David Haley, CDFCP Steering Committee: Suggest local governments think about how to get private forest landowners to collaborate with land protection and conservation efforts – as opposed to imposed rules.

[10:14:07] From Joachim, World Fisheries: As a devil’s advocate, using old-growth forest for long term construction keeps carbon sequestered, while the replacement fast-growing young forest sequesters carbon more quickly.  Are there more criteria like biodiversity or ecosystem values in the carbon credit formulas that are coming?

[10:15:13] Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: But it is the extinction of an ecosystem Joachim. We cannot look at only one facet like carbon sequestration.

[10:15:30] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Joachim:  we typically lose 50% of the carbon from a harvested forest almost immediately, but yes, the other 50% can be put into long term products storage

[10:17:22] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: @Joachim, love to see your source for assumption that “replacement” plantings sequester carbon more quickly. Not my understanding on a sheer biomass level of growth per year. Also appreciate us also keeping in mind that replanting doesn’t always make a new forest, forests are diverse in age, species, flora and fauna that isn’t easily achieved by planting only.

[10:18:11] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Following up on this exchange… How shifting climate patterns are impacting forest regeneration: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/mar/10/is-this-the-end-of-forests-as-weve-known-them?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Twiitti

[10:18:19] From Aaron Kuchirka, Climate Smart Solutions: Excellent message, Daimen! Looking forward to connecting again soon!

[10:18:31] From Tara Martin: Suzanne Simard’s work in Coastal Douglas Fir forests shows that Old Growth sequesters more carbon than regenerating forests.

[10:19:28] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Joachim.  It is true that regrowth during a portion of the regrowth can sequester carbon rapidly, but typically it’s logged in the middle of that growth phase, so again you lose 50% of that carbon.  The modelling is very clear that over the long term, conserving high carbon OG forests is an effective carbon strategy.

[10:19:31] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++Tara Love the citation reference on this as it is my understanding from reading into this space.

[10:20:01] From Tara Martin: She has a paper in press called ‘Carbon storage, productivity and biodiversity of mature Douglas-fir forests across a climate gradient in British Columbia. Frontiers in Forests and Climate Change (2021) lead by her grad student Jean Roach.

[10:21:40] From Erik Piikkila: Right, a lot of research shows that Bigger, Taller, and Older Trees in “maintenance mode” store more carbon than younger and smaller trees which are growing their fastest Age 0 to Age 40. Size & age does matter for Carbon Sequestration!!

[10:22:44] From Tara Martin: Suzanne Simard will be joining me for a conversation at the ‘virtual’ Salt Spring Forum soon to talk about this work.

[10:22:45] From Gary Holman CRD Director: A key issue in the gulf islands is how to manage for fire in protected forests.

[10:23:07] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring: Marty Kranabetter will be coming up soon on the  agenda with all the latest data on the tremendous role of Coastal Douglas fir and associated fungi in carbon sequestration.

[10:23:28] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Reducing fire risk through stewardship is another way to store carbon.

[10:23:33] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Gary, we have applied to the EcoAction Fund to address this issue, by enhancing fire resistance in our forests.  Let’s hope it is funded!

[10:24:01] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Gary:  That is the key challenge here.  We may need to reduce stand densities significantly to be able to move to fire maintained forests, but that does result in carbon emissions.

[10:24:34] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Robert – yes it creates in the short term but reduces in the long term.

[10:24:35] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: The question is whether that ecosystem change saves carbon over the long term by reducing the risk of catastrophic fire.

[10:24:36] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring: Fire management is enhanced by forest health which relies on stewardship which we currently have no funding for. Hence exploring nature-based solutions.

[10:24:38] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Which means supporting foresters and restoration.

[10:25:47] From Erik Piikkila: Thinning Forests for Fire Smarting objectives can also include Other Objectives:  Moving Forest Along Old Growth Development Curve, Creating Habitat, Creating Forests with Old Growth Conditions such as Cool, Shady & Moist Interior Forest Conditions, Carbon Storage, and even Some Timber Supply.

[10:25:51] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: And also, as Daimen said, what the impacts of climate change will be on the forest – all of our dead hemlock and cedars, to start.

[10:26:01] From Gary Holman, CRD Director: Thanks Bryan, with or without Eco-Action funding, there needs to be some public education locally on how fire risk can be managed in protected forests to counter the notion being promoted by some, that protection means higher fire risk.

[10:26:37] From David Haley: Vancouver Island Economic Alliance (VIEA) is working on projects to utilize fibre from logging.  This could include fibre from fuel management.  The FLNRORD and FP Innovations are also doing good work on this approach.

[10:26:44] From Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Yes, Gary, as you know we are working with the Trust on helping to build their public education toolkit on forest stewardship.

[10:27:01] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Gary, the Islands Trust is supporting us on public education, you will see these materials very soon!

[10:28:35] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Erik P.

[10:29:38] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Well done Garry! Thank you!

[10:29:56] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Last year the Gulf Island Firesmart worked with me and others across the Gulf Islands to think about wildfire and climate change. Our videos and resources for this are here: https://tinyurl.com/Wildfire-CC-in-GI-2020

[10:30:42] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Thanks for sharing that resource Deb! I have been meaning to ask you for the notes from that collaboration!

[10:32:00] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Kudos to Saturna Firesmart for thinking about what might work best for our region and learning collaboratively with community instead of one size fits all.

[10:34:42] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Here are some of the public outreach materials we have developed for the Islands Trust, à propos Gary Holman’s points about the importance of landowner education.  https://transitionsaltspring.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/4.-CAP-2.0-HERES-WHAT-YOU-CAN-DO-PRINTABLE.pdf

[10:37:21] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: @Gary We have been thinking about this for a bit – education writ large – we are producing different materials such as liked above but also doing some speaker series – http://www.islandstrust.bc.ca/trust-council/projects/stewardship-education-program/

[10:39:28] From david: I’m wondering how much of a compromise went into the agreement on the Great Bear/ I understand that the forest companies have insisted on keeping some prime areas for logging. And that conservation groups were up against the ‘take it or leave it’. It seems that the conservation groups got a ‘deal’ but far from what is needed to protect the Great Bear. Not only the trees but the health of the ecosystem.  Like many agreements, it looks good until one gets into the details and the gap between what is needed and what is on the table. The same can be said about the Paris Agreement!

[10:41:55] From David Haley: Satnam – thanks for the kudos to Peter Ackhurst and Neil Hughes – and to the ministry staff for enabling this project.

[10:42:55] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Love to know what other levels of government are doing to learn with and from the community on green/blue carbon actions that can and should be taken.

[10:43:02] From Dirk Brinkman: To Garry Wouters: What does UNDRIP mean in BC and nationally? By the way everyone, it was well expressed in the Globe & Mail this morning by Chief Sharlene Gale “….co-development constitutes informed consent. So reach out early. Plan together. And don’t show up with pre-cooked take it or leave it schemes. March 17, 2021 Globe & Mail Opportunities, not obstacles.

[10:43:27] From Susan Hannon Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Can we have a copy of the chat after the workshop?

[10:44:00] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Satnam, such important information for us. Thank you so much for being so detailed in your explanation.

[10:44:24] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Thank you Satnam. That was really inspiring!

[10:44:25] From Erinanne Harper, Transition Salt Spring: FYI- We will make the edited chat notes available to all after the meeting.

[10:48:10] From Satnam Manhas: maybe we better connect the terrestrial to marine protection to improve this.

[10:48:14] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Lower case ‘David’ you make a really important point about the role of forestry in truly sustainable forestry.  I can’t speak for Great Bear, but our forests here on the Gulf Islands actually require a lot of intervention in order to address climate change fuelled fire risks.  To do that we will need to cut, plant, berm, swale et al.  This will, in part, generate cash value from the sale of timber which we need, and build forest resiliency against fire.  It’s interesting to note that we have been criticized by some ENGOs for even having today’s conversation.  This represents to me a fundamental misunderstanding of the ecosystem potential in carbon stewardship that we are talking about today.

[10:51:06] From David Oxley, Great Bear Carbon Credit Limited Partnership: We are entering the second year of a three-year quantification methodology Blue Carbon project. Year One has indicated a strong possibility of focusing on kelp.

[10:51:10] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Thank you Robert!

[10:51:11] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Is eelgrass the only model to look at? What about kelps and others?

[10:51:30] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: https://bit.ly/3tDhW67

[10:51:43] From Gary Holman CRD Director: The CRD Parks together have protected over 10,000 ha within the regional district. We need to increase the requisition for the CRD Land Acquisition Fund, (which is currently less than $2 per household per month) and build on this resource in partnership with First Nations (eg on Crown lands) and other conservation agencies.

[10:51:51] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Pierre:  Kelp is definitely a possibility as well, but we have the same problem of knowing what the actual carbon benefits are.

[10:52:04] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: What does a federal carbon price of 160$ do for what we are doing ?

[10:52:10] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: and https://bit.ly/3sHeXsk

[10:52:25] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Thank you so much Robert! It’s great to know that we are all figuring this out together.

[10:52:52] From Susan Hannon Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Where do we get the best short-term bang for the buck- restoring forest or restoring ocean ecosystems?

Answer from Robert Seaton: The best bang for the buck is undoubtedly always going to be not restoring, but protecting old growth forests or older forests that are imminently threatened with logging. That’s always a fast one. Once you get beyond that, then if we’re talking about restoring, so basically replanting, whether it’s kelp beds or eelgrass or forests, then it’s going to depend so much on the ecosystems, the site, and the developing science on the oceans side. I think in actual fact, we probably can’t even answer that question properly yet because we still need to learn more about how our local kelp, eelgrass, and saltmarsh ecosystems work and how much carbon they actually do sequester. So, hard to answer that question, I think they’re all important and they all need to happen. 

Answer from Satnam Manhas: On the forests side–I won’t talk about kelp because it’s outside my scope–a lot of people have been jumping on the planting bandwagon, and I’m not saying planting is bad, but if 2030 and 2050 are important dates, in British Columbia in general, planting is not going to solve our problems. At all. It’s a very small carbon benefit. However, I will say, because 93% of your lands in the CDF are private lands, there is a lot of deforestation happening and  you have some of the best growing sites. In Canada. Those are one of the keys where planting actually could have a lot of benefits for those next 10 to 30 years compared to anywhere else because you grow your trees fast. 

But you would have to grow aggregate models between you, models that work with all these different landowners to make it work. You also need to reduce the fire risk. Models are showing that fires are going there and I think a lot of people will think “cut the tree down because we don’t want fire”. That’s the wrong approach. Reduce fire risk.      

[10:53:09] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: If we can get to the $160 price for offsets (still some questions there), it will definitely make smaller projects more viable.

[10:54:00] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: saltmarsh tends to store more blue carbon per unit than eelgrass – both need protection even if not blue carbon offset calculations being applied.

[10:54:01] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Best short-term bang for the buck is typically conserving OG forests that are imminently threatened with harvest.

[10:54:09] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: so many additional benefits

[10:55:07] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems: Agreed on saltmarsh – less issue with tidal and wave movements taking carbon offsite, and lots of primary productivity.

[10:55:39] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Thanks David Oxley for sharing the info on your research project exploring the feasibility of blue carbon projects in the BC context. Looking forward to seeing the findings!

[10:56:12] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring:: And that becomes a cash stream for the acquisition of more land by the orders of government.

[10:56:52] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Deb Morrison just sent this article to me defining the colour-based descriptions of carbon projects: https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-020-0037-y

[10:59:47] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy:: Will anyone provide an analysis of what happened on Saturna and why First Nations were not prepared to consider conservation over logging?

[10:59:53] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Both

[11:00:56] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Good point, Pierre! It would be great to understand that better.

[11:01:47] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring: In the CDF (Coastal Douglas Fir) we are lucky in that we have some great scientists at UBC who have done very detailed chrono-sequences on carbon sequestration of these forests.

[11:02:14] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: And they need to be complex models that work on healthy forest structure not only just trees.

[11:03:28] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: I worry about how carbon offsets might concentrate inequity in some way. Interesting to think about what carbon offsets are offsetting and where. Who has decision making authority in those spaces? Who is most impacted?

[11:06:42] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: I do worry that this method is not shifting paradigms in the way we need to going forward. In the Trust Area, many islanders acknowledge the intrinsic value of forests and support their protection just because. That said, I do feel we need to do everything possible to enact protective measures as quickly as possible. Is this a necessary interim measure until paradigms shift more meaningfully? Thanks for giving space for this question. I am interested in hearing others’ views.

[11:07:31] From Aaron Kuchirka, Climate Smart Solutions: Great question, however governments do not have licence to claim. Government’s role is to consult with the public and stakeholders, set and maintain the standard. It’s fully time to consider the complete costs and holding the “investor” accountable for the complete costs of their ROI, (i.e. carbon in the production of pizza boxes), environmental and socially as well as in terms of GDP and jobs to the economy.

[11:08:06] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: I listened to a podcast episode yesterday (available here: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-429-what-on-earth (and featuring the famous Joseph Pallant!)) in which a researcher from SMU in Halifax spoke about the potential risk of carbon offsetting allowing governments to avoid taking more meaningful climate action. She says “Offsetting allows us to believe that it’s going to be painless… I think many of us like that narrative because then we can continue to go about business as usual. It is a dangerous distraction”. One of my worries is that government might use these projects as a way to demonstrate action without making tangible moves toward lowering emissions.

[11:09:53] From Joseph Pallant, EcoTrust Canada: The quote on the screen has it 180 degrees wrong. Enabling communities to develop emissions reductions projects and generate carbon offsets allows governments to INCREASE ambition. Ambition can be increased, and new emissions reductions achieved across Canada because it puts tools in the hands in new players and lets them access carbon finance. Without offsets, in a strange sense, polluters hold all the chips when it comes to what emissions get reduced. Polluters pay the tax; polluters are beholden to the regs. But this leaves communities without ways to resource action.

[11:10:23] From Joachim, World Fisheries: I think that carbon certification needs social and ecological aspects, as demonstrated by the challenges faced by many international projects.  Addressing climate change is much more a social problem than a technical calculation.

[11:11:08] From Shirley Samples, SC Streamkeepers Society: What I have been concerned about as commented above: I totally believe we need to do everything possible now to save life on Mother Earth as we know it but  Isn’t carbon credits how Trudeau is justifying buying and building a pipeline? How can we argue this approach?

[11:12:14] From Robert Seaton, Brinkman Earth Systems Carbon credits are never going to get us to the Paris Target.  Mind you, I don’t believe that any of the current government initiatives will meet that target either. Sigh.

[11:12:16] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Good to be very suspicious, Shirley!  But when the price goes higher, the viability of fossils decreases.  Agreed we need to do everything.

[11:13:05] From Joseph Pallant, EcoTrust Canada: It’s valuable to look at the entire sweep of proposed federal action around climate. Carbon tax, direct investments through the Low Carbon Economy Fund, new investments in Natural Climate Solutions. And offsets. Offsets are likely to be small piece, but they allow communities to do good things.

[11:13:15] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Doesn’t this concern get addressed by adhering to the highest standards?

[11:13:15] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: I agree with Joachim, we need to factor in ecosystem and cultural values and benefits.

~ Poll: What organization or group are you part of? ~

  • 2% Federal
  • 2% First Nation Communities
  • 6% First Nation Council
  • 8% Province
  • 8% Local/Regional Government
  • 34% EGNOs and Land Trust
  • 45% Other (Some of those “Other” affiliations listed below) 

[11:14:04] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Islands Trust…not Land Trust or Local Govt only.

[11:14:11] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: Contract with local NPOs

[11:14:14] From Michelle Bonner, Vancity (she/her): Financial institution. Credit union.

[11:14:21] From David Oxley, Great Bear Carbon Credit Limited Partnership: Indigenous Organization

[11:14:31] From David Haley: Other – forester, private forest landowner, CDFCP

[11:14:40] From Aaron Kuchirka, Climate Smart Solutions: CEO of Indigenous owned Forest Management Company in SK.

[11:14:42] From Shirley Samples, SC Streamkeepers Society: Community member – grassroots with Indigenous background

[11:14:56] From Ken Josephson, UVic Geog Map Shop (he/him): Action-based, community-engaged teaching / learning. UVic Geography

[11:14:58] From Gordon Elliott: Gord Elliott, Director of Operations, W̱SÁNEĆ Leadership Council

[11:15:12] From Brenda Kuecks, Providence Farm: “Other’.  Providence Farm is a private charity that has 400 acres of land under management — half of this is forestland and half agricultural. We are interested in understanding if there are collaborative approaches to carbon projects among private forest landholders.

[11:18:10] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Brenda, it would be great to speak with you.  Farmers on Salt Spring are concerned about forest preservation initiatives impinging on their right to make livelihoods.  The balance in your initiative is great!

~ Poll: A skill testing question: What part of the CDF Forest absorbs the most carbon? ~

  • Canopy/leaves
  • Roots
  • Soil
  • Fungi/microorganisms
  • Bark
  • Cambium layer

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: My answer would be none of the above! 

[11:19:13] From Elizabeth May, MP: To Robert’s point on “Paris target”… Two things- NO, we are nowhere near Paris target which is to stay as far below 2 degrees as possible and stay to 1.5 if possible.  But what the Canadian government calls the “Paris target” has nothing to do with the Paris goals. The media and government treat the Harper target, which we may as well rename the Trudeau target, as if it is associated with the Paris Agreement goals. The 30% below 2005 by 2030 is NOT consistent with 1.5 degrees.  AND despite all the cheering for the Trudeau climate announcements, they do not add up to 30% below 2005 by 2030. Hate to be the wet blanket, but as Greta Thunberg says, net zero by 2050, without meaningful cuts before 2030, is “surrender.”

[11:20:14] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Thank you for reminding us about the Harper target switch Elizabeth.

[11:20:36] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: Thank you again for the truth lens Ms. May. So critical to remove greenwashing at all levels.

[11:21:33] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: I have had a question about the agenda. Right now, we are at the Rooting in Place presentation (11:15-11:35), Policy Panel (11:35-12:50), Break-Out 2 (12:50-1:15), and Closing Comments (1:15-1:30)

[11:25:24] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Elizabeth. We need to more deeply mobilize our population to understand these issues if we are going to get anywhere close to needed GHGs reductions. I’ve been working on issues of climate empowerment and encourage all interested to ask all their government folks for meaningful climate policy decision making processes that leverage local knowledge and activism. Also, all need to get involved in local groups to move things forward through organizational pressure and action too. We all need to be doing everything we can possibly be doing at every turn. Talk climate everywhere – https://talkclimate.org/

[11:25:37] From Satnam Manhas: There is not enough discussion on impact to soils with short rotation forestry – keep needing fertilizers.

[11:26:15] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Patches will need to be suitably larger to keep other life forms, e.g. interior forest birds and other vertebrates

[11:27:15] From David Haley: To Satnam – but if OG logging is stopped, there will be pressure on second and third growth stands, I predict that this will lead to short rotations on those stands to deliver the wood needed for society and mass timber construction.

[11:27:19] From Shelby Leslie: Managing for hidden diversity…. harkens back to Satnam comment re: putting a value to the resource.

[11:27:36] From Shelby Leslie: Marty can you speak to where the province is with regards to what you’re saying?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: I think the province is slowly coming around to the idea that old forests have a huge amount of value beyond just timber. I think no government ever says “no” to jobs and money. That’s the fundamental problem: we want to do the right thing but there’s always this pressure to not quite do the right thing. There’s millions of examples, from cod fisheries to everything else, we just try to do the right thing up until the point that it costs money then we give up. But I think we are making progress.

[11:28:28] From Andy Ellingsen: How do we modify the extinction graph? What strategy will work?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: Fundamentally you have to have a healthy component of your landscape in older stands. I don’t know the magic number, but in the case of fungi I don’t think it needs to be a huge amount, like say 20% would be nice… 20% that’s at least older than 100 years. You can’t just have one park way off in the corner and then everything else is young. You really need to try to capture that spatial heterogeneity. So, lots of reserves, lots of extended rotations, just trying to keep a certain amount of mature stands.   

[11:28:30] From Torrey Archer: Thank you Marty! Are there certain fungi that store carbon more than others or is it based on biomass?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: I don’t know if there is a particular species effect. There’s types of mycorrhiza, so some people make a big deal about arbuscular mycorrhiza, which is on big leaf maple, so some people argue that an ectomycorrhizal conifer stores more carbon than a big leaf maple, let’s say– and that’s from correlations. But, when they plant them side by side they actually have had difficulty finding any difference in the soil carbon. So I  just think: forests. As long as forests are there, trees are there, you are going to get what you are going to get.

[11:28:32] From Larry Pynn, Freelance Journalist: What are the implications for long-term forest health if fungi diversity is diminished?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: That is a good question and difficult to answer with any great certainty. I’m fascinated by this endemic species thing. Why are all these species that are only on the west coast? Biological theory would suggest that they’re here because they are specialists, they do something particularly unique in this environment or they are particularly well adapted to these soils. I have a current study going on, more on the west side of the Island, in the VM1, like our true rainforests. Those are very nitrogen-rich soils, very low phosphorus and the endemic species in those plots tend to have much more elevated nutrients comparative to non-endemics. I would love to do that study in the CDF, for the CWHxm. Those endemic species are worth holding on to for stand productivity and ecosystem productivity. 

[11:28:41] From Erik Piikkila: Patch Sizes need to be bigger as Edge Effects can extend from 200 – 600 meters into the patches from surrounding Patches that have changed in a major way through clearcutting or urban development and even post forest fires.

[11:29:09] From Carrie, Cortes Community Forest: Role of fungi in carbon sequestration?

[11:29:10] From Satnam Manhas: Our competitive advantage in the world might be large – clear wood large wood if we extend rotation ages, as the rest of the world goes to short rotation forest cycles with limbs.

[11:30:03] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Does higher elevation old growth in BC contribute significantly to fungi preservation?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: Yes, but just like birds and plants and everything else, every BEC zone, every variant has its own community. So if you go up into the Mountain Hemlock zone you’re going to have a very diverse community, but a completely different community of fungi than you’re going to have in the CDF. It’s all about ecosystem representation. Also, within the CDF it would be crucial to have the range of site types, from the dry, arbutus-type forest right down to the moist, grand fir/sword fern type forest. They all have different fungi species, all worth keeping.  

[11:30:09] From Erik Piikkila:: But including in Retention Activities Retaining Biological Legacies such as Large Live Trees, Large Snags, & Large Downed Logs to help lifeboat species, ecological processes, & micro ecosystems.

[11:30:33] From Steve Wright, Trustee South Pender (S’DAYES): the use of the term “fibre” rather than “trees” by industry and the Province is an attempt to nullify the intrinsic value of the associated ecosystem which is sacrificed in obtaining “fibre”.

[11:30:40] From Erik Piikkila: What about fungi’s important role in maintaining Rainforests?

[11:31:53] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Satnam’s point about the lower soil fertility with shorter rotations as a good one!

[11:32:10] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: How are fungi communities varied in replanted forests that were clear-cut?

Answer from Marty Kranabetter: That’s a good question! I don’t think biologically there’s any reason to suspect that a natural disturbance is different from a man-made disturbance in terms of succession. We know for sure that when you remove a tree, or remove that carbon and return to a very early seral, pioneer-like system. There are many–well maybe not many–but there are definitely some fungi that thrive in those early seral conditions. Then over time, things will start to come in from the edges. So, that’s where having old growth patches all over the place allows that immigration into those stands. Fundamentally, what I tell people is: forests undergo natural disturbance all the time. All these communities are used to disturbances, so a tree dying in and of itself is not unnatural. What is unnatural   is cutting it down every 50 years. Trees don’t die every 50 years. That’s where the train leaves the tracks. 

[11:33:02] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Having edges seems important then.

[11:33:50] From Satnam Manhas: If you look at Buzz Hollings work on Resilience, it would say that we have gone beyond “high risk” and this ecosystem will not bounce back, and will need to be converted into something else. So, should we be working with FNs on what that bounce back needs to look like?

[11:33:52] From David Haley: Are economists and accountants working on developing methods and tools to put a value on the ecosystem values?

[11:35:03] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Satnam…less than 1% of the Trust Area is old growth.

[11:35:04] From Erinanne Harper, Transition Salt Spring: One of our local loggers offers these numbers in defence of logging on SSI: On Salt Spring Island old growth forests are NOT logged, here second growth forests are logged at a rate of 25 thousand cubic meters at best annually. Meanwhile the annual growth is over 350 thousand cubic meters, compounding annually. Making the forestry here 100% sustainable.

[11:35:12] From Carrie, Cortes Community Forest: Marty – lots of fungi thrive in dead/decomposing trees. What is impact on them when logging removes trees from area? Does it affect fungi biomass?

[11:35:13] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Yes, ecosystem valuation has been ongoing for a while, but has many limitations.

[11:35:29] From Andy Ellingsen: I heard 10 years ago that New Zealand plantations would produce 3 rotations and then the trees would no longer grow. Do we have any comparisons with longer established “managed” forests Scandinavia, Germany, etc. with fungal diversity studies?

[11:35:30] From Aaron Kuchirka, Climate Smart Solutions: Hi David, my organization, Climate Smart Solutions helps investors understand the full ROI as environmental economists.

[11:36:09] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: To Marty. Are areas with short rotation harvests (tree farms) not necessary to feed our appetite for wood …. if it means preserving old growth areas … assuming governments had the will to do so.

[11:37:20] From Erik Piikkila: @Andy Ellingsen:  Look at Lubeck Forest in Germany:  https://yellowpointecologicalsociety.ca/2019/01/30/lubeck-another-way-of-logging/

[11:37:32] From Christine Hodgson: Hi Marty. Is there complimentary research on the role of fungi in salt marsh / estuarine habitats?

[11:38:55] From Erik Piikkila: Lubeck Forest has 25% Retention of Total Forest

[11:40:10] From David Haley: To Erik – Lubeck also has timber that commands a MUCH higher value per cubic metre.

[11:40:49] From Erik Piikkila: Yes, Dave and 35 Full time jobs!!

[11:40:53] From David Haley: that is – Much higher value than even today’s high prices for coastal timber.

[11:42:12] From Erik Piikkila: And Lubeck Forest is about 5,000 hectares and is the same size and the North Cowichan Municipal Forest!!

[11:43:52] From Elizabeth May, MP: Sorry!! I am back!!  Every time the doorbell to our apartment is rung downstairs, my internet cuts out! Life in zoom. So sorry!

[11:44:46] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: We will get you back shortly, likely after Adam.  :-)

[11:48:09] From Satnam Manhas: WWF and FAO have both put out reports in 2010-2012 and we will need 3 times more forest in 2050 than 2010 (50% for heating/cooking and rest for products).  So, there is real pressure.  How to replace them with clean energy and products that are not made from concrete, steel, or plastics – through alternate less carbon products, reuse, or just needing less.  We have a lot of rural communities that feel their economy will fall apart without this – the facilities they provide used to have 200 people working, now have 35 people (efficiencies) – so jobs are not actually happening, and these same companies have been taking their profits to southern US or other places.

[11:49:34] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Development Permit Areas for forest protection.

[11:49:40] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Development Permit Area for CDF protection

[11:49:40] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Satnam, we really need the numbers to demonstrate this. Information like this is hard to find. It is always aggregated or unavailable.

[11:50:31] From Scott Scholefield: Great message, thanks Adam.

[11:51:05] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: My understanding is that clear cutting in the southern Gulf Islands has nothing to do with maintaining a sustainable forest sector but serves the short-term developer’s strip and flip process.

[11:51:17] From Erik Piikkila: It is raw logs getting shipping to Asia to be cut up in the sawmills that used to be here on the BC Coast.  We are paying to ship the logs to Asia and then paying to ship the fixed wood products back to BC.

[11:51:32] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Multiple issues around forest loss.

[11:52:15] From Erik Piikkila: 28,000 m3 of logs go on one Raw Log Freighter!!  7,000 m3 was a one month cut at one medium sized logging camp on the coast.

[11:52:54] From David Haley: To Pierre Mineau – I agree.  The pressure is on logging for development and has nothing to do with any sort of sustainable forest management.

[11:53:01] From Dirk Brinkman: Marty, thank you for educating the public and your work. We all lament the lack of action. But in a democracy, voters rule. And voters are vulnerable to the propaganda of economic interests –both the economic interest of government and the interests of those who dominate our economy.  what can we all do?

[11:53:56] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: Ms. May – what is the most effective push we can do? Petition signing? Letters to ministers and MLA/MPs? Other?

[11:55:59] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: @Dirk there are efforts inside larger global and local scales to foster public learning as well https://bit.ly/2QkCnX1

[11:56:08] From Eleri Harris, NatureBank: Thanks Elizabeth – inspiring talk!

[11:56:20] From Carrie, Cortes Community Forest: Janet and Adam – thank you so much for your clear vision and public service! Very grateful.

[11:57:15] From Aaron Kuchirka, Climate Smart Solutions: No indulgences, only transition.

[11:57:18] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Thank you Adam and Elizabeth for the critical lens that you hold up to these things that matter.

[11:57:31] From Gary Holman, CRD Director: To Elizabeth and Adam, what is the status of the National Marine Conservation Area initiative for the Strait of Georgia (Salish Sea)?

[11:57:34] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Thank you Elizabeth & Adam. Such incredible representatives for us all. Gives me hope.

[11:57:50] From Elizabeth May, MP: All of the above, but particularly work in the media. Letters to the editor, opinion pieces, as well as civil disobedience, support for the TMX tree sitters. The Liberals are way better than the Conservatives, but that does not mean we give them a free pass. Some tough love is needed.

[11:58:05] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: Yes hope. my 19 yr. old came in, listened then left all fired up!

[11:58:05] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Elizabeth

[11:59:22] From Elizabeth May, MP: As to the question from Gary Holman re: NMCA, the First Nations consultation needs at least another year. That is the current status. Of course, Parks Canada waited way too long to start respectful Nation to Nation consultation.

[11:59:53] From Joseph Pallant, EcoTrust Canada: Here’s the thing. It’s unlikely that Indulgences get you into heaven. But communities developing emissions reductions projects that do get and keep carbon out of the atmosphere and prove it through certification of resultant carbon offsets do help beat climate change.

[12:00:14] From Andy Ellingsen: We clearly need better ways to express the values of the forests than we have today. So much damage is being done by our political attention to the GROSSLY Simplistic measure of value the Dollar. We must continue to stress the non-monetary values which we recognize in our forests and find better ways to help others understand what we know and value.

[12:00:23] From Shirley Samples, SC Streamkeepers Society: Thank you Elizabeth – you are so right! To get the attention of government officials ignoring climate emergency we MUST support front line water protectors on the streets and at construction sites and at MP and MLA offices! If unable to do so in person, look for ways to financially support grassroots organizations!

[12:02:22] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Thanks Elizabeth, and for participating today.

[12:02:39] From Erinanne Harper, Transition Salt Spring: I’d like to hear more about the First Nations perspective of human relationship with land in contract to some conservationist perspectives of saving land from humans.

[12:03:35] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Controlling grazing and compaction by overabundant deer will be key to keeping those bushes and healthy forest understories. It will also increase our fire resilience.

[12:03:42] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Eric thank you for speaking for the ants and trees. They are so important.

[12:04:26] From Erik Piikkila:: Log, Blast, & Build!!!

[12:04:38] From Dirk Brinkman: Elizabeth, I also began working on climate in 1986–with Maurice Strong, who, then in BC, launching a Reforest Africa project with the many representatives from Africa here. Reflecting how this project –a Canadian initiative–bogged down in disagreements between the paternal and matriarchal African cultures.  Please comment on the economy of swashbucklers still dominant today, and how to create change.

[12:04:42] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: Thank you Eric Pelkey for those words.

[12:04:51] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Thank you so much Eric for reminding us what is really important. Thank you for your teachings.

[12:05:18] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Thank you Eric.

[12:05:28] From Ken Josephson, UVic Geog Map Shop (he/him): HÍSW̱ḴE SII,ÁM

[12:07:02] From Doug Fenton, Islands Trust Trustee: Huy ch q’a Eric…your wisdom and ongoing commitment is appreciated.

[12:09:11] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: The Salt Spring Island Climate Action Plan can be seen at https://transitionsaltspring.com/responding-to-climate-change/

[12:11:58] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Why stop at doubling? Go big Gary!

[12:12:05] From Dirk Brinkman: Eric, you brought the heart of the teachings of your people. Thank you. From the legacy of incredible abundance, your people were amazing ecologists that knew how to nudge the important elements there in these whole ecosystems without compromising the health of the whole, many of us who were welcomed to live here by and with your people recognize that abundance now offers goals for our future.

[12:12:41] From Dirk Brinkman: Eric…continued. Talk about how you see us all working together?

[12:12:48] From Elizabeth May, MP: Yes!! Thank you for Burgoyne Bay!!

[12:13:36] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: this just popped up in my feed: https://act.ejfoundation.org/bluecarbon?refsid=147634&utm_source=fb_share&utm_campaign=[198]&utm_medium=share&fbclid=IwAR10psrPDIlknD4MxuUFAzd7p8iiYKDYOMV3BRLRPQsVweJJAeYlyCPeQn8

[12:13:52] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring:: Xwaaqw’um is the name of Burgoyne Bay and is the centre of Indigenous restoration and learning community from the Stqyee Learning Society.

[12:14:16] From Elizabeth May, MP: Thanks Gary!!!

[12:14:39] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Thanks Gary!  Gary’s been a wonderful supporter of climate action on Salt Spring Island.

[12:14:45] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: More about the intersectional work I do at different scales and contexts beyond the Islands Trust www.debmorrison.me

[12:16:10] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Yes! Thank you, Clare, Dalani, Doug, and Steve for being here!

[12:19:13] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: http://www.islandstrust.bc.ca/media/346674/cdf-toolkit-final-web.pdf

[12:19:13] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring: Please send your questions here for the panellists.

[12:19:19] From Satnam Manhas: Carbon offsets are short term transitionary tool – in my opinion, and won’t mean anything if we are not reducing emissions in the next 10-15 years.  Need price to keep going up for it to work – no more Christy Clark pauses

[12:19:26] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Given what is happening to land prices, conservation through acquisitions will become harder and harder to achieve.

[12:20:11] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Really good point Pierre.  An example of how housing equity and climate change interact.

[12:20:33] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Our Trustees will definitely need our support to implement stronger protection for our CDF forests, including showing up at public meetings.

[12:20:47] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Perhaps Mr. Olson should revisit why the Gulf Islands were exempted from the empty home taxes. This exemption is contributing to runaway prices of land here.

[12:22:06] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: What needs to change to influence folks to “live differently” within the Islands Trust (i.e. what policies are most needed to address the most pressing environmental issues on the Islands)?

[12:23:45] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: Please send input and ideas through the Islands 2050 engagement process: http://www.islandstrust.bc.ca/trust-council/projects/islands-2050/

[12:23:58] From David Haley: Pierre – I agree and suggest that the groups and individuals here need to create a reason or incentive for landowners to consider conservation as a means of generating an economic return from their land. Carbon could be one tool but requires an aggregated approach to overcome the start-up barriers of an individual going through all the steps by themselves that Robert Seaton outlined.

[12:24:18] From Adam Olsen, MLA: Thank you for your comment Pierre. I had a meeting with a few trustees and CRD Director yesterday about this very situation. It must be a part of full spectrum of housing policies but as we have seen with the runaway prices in areas with the tax it is not the whole solution.

[12:25:12] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: More about the intersectional work I do at different scales and contexts beyond the Islands Trust www.debmorrison.me

[12:25:26] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: A repeating pattern we see here is where children inherit land that was ably protected by their parents. They may not live in the area and simply want to cash in their inheritance.

[12:25:31] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Eric, in your view, what might be the next steps for designing co-managed carbon projects in the CDF?

Answer from Eric: There has to be a willingness of the jurisdictions that exist around us and with us, to engage with us and go into co-management projects. We are entering into co-management negotiations with Gulf Islands National Park, and we are also willing to engage with other entities and other governmental levels to talk about co-management projects, especially in regard to saving our environment, saving our oceans. We have an open door to people who are willing to work with us. 

12:25:49 From Colin Campbell – ex Sierra Club BC Science Advisor : It could be that carbon offsets, inadequate and inappropriate as they might be to moving to zero C emissions, are more relevant to the “decolonization of our thinking” that is the source of  our behaviour – which is the real issue, the problem and the location of the solutions.  Let’s call offsets instead ‘set-offs’ – setting our actions in the ‘carbon-off’ position.

Answer from Adam Olsen: I might just fill the air with words while I think about what the impact of that will be. I think I will focus on language, just in general, and semantics. I think one of the things that we often find in the legislatures, or the House of Commons, or in politics—and I think probably my relatives sitting on the other side of the table from the colonial governments would acknowledge this as well—there is an awful lot of words used, but it is the actions on the other side which I think is really the most important thing. I’m going to be getting ready for question period in an hour and we’re actually going to be talking about exactly this. What is important is that playing around with the meaning of words means a lot to these bureaucracies, but it means little to the natural environment. We can play with words all we want, but what we need to do is focus on the policies that are actually going to achieve [environmental protection]. This isn’t to minimize Colin’s . I have yet to really think about exactly what the difference between “offsets” and “set-offs” would be. 

However, I do want to elevate the situation that I’m in right now in my role as the opposition: one of the benefits of the role I am in… is that I can talk about issues that the other parties are not necessarily willing to talk about. So, when Sonia [Furstenau] and I first stood in the legislature two or three years ago and raised issues about old growth, the discomfort in the room wasn’t just from the government who had to answer the question, the discomfort was on the other side of the House as well. There was genuine discomfort everywhere. What is important is the way that our colonial structure works here in this legislature is that there are ways—as long as there is an agreement in this bipartisan place that there isn’t going to be a conversation about an issue—that questions never get raised. So, the value in being opposition, while it’s not easy, there is a real benefit and a real freedom to being in the seat that I’m in. I can raise the uncomfortable questions and I will continue to raise the uncomfortable questions.

I really want to emphasize the point that Deb made with respect to supporting your Island Trustees to supporting your CRD Directors, your MLA (a lot!), and your MP, as we stand up and raise these uncomfortable questions and as we do things outside the status quo. Because there is nothing easier in government than to fall into the trap of advancing the status quo. The most difficult thing for us to do is to step outside that box and do something different. Those that are making that difference need to be supported by the community around them. 

[12:26:15] From Gary Holman CRD Director: I believe that for the most part, residents of the Trust area already do live differently to address environmental issues, but I would say one of the most important actions is to support elected officials being more aggressive regarding policy, rules and resources.  BTW, the Trust area is unique in BC with respect to the Natural Area Tax Exemption (NAPTEP) which provides up to a 65% property tax reduction in return for conservation covenants held by the Islands Trust Conservancy.

12:26:2 From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: http://www.islandstrust.bc.ca/trust-council/projects/climate-change/

12:27:45 From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Pierre on the empty homes tax

[12:28:28] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Thanks so much Erik for your statement regarding co-management.

[12:29:15] From David Haley: Could Adam comment on the reluctance of the previous government to institute the equivalent of NAPTEP for all other local governments in BC?

[12:29:41] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: ++ Gary

[12:29:52] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Empty homes tax is definitely an opportunity.  Off island buyers might think twice and it could help with affordability of housing and lands that can serve as sinks.

[12:30:00] From Pierre Mineau, Salt Spring Island Conservancy: Thanks Deb. Empty homes … or homes lived in for a few weeks a year destroy the fabric of society and take valuable space that should go to year-round residents.

[12:31:22] Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: We need NAPTEP programs that encourage landowners to steward in exchange for lower taxes have an entry hurdle that is too high.  We need the iPhone version of those programs that are as easy as redeeming a coupon.

[12:31:36] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: I actually find being in the government role as empowering. I get to argue for change and define what it can be. Not always successful but needed, I think.

[12:31:39] From Satnam Manhas: Elizabeth – Inheritance Tax as a tool?

[12:32:29] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: As a complement to empty house/luxury tax, maybe provincial legislation similar to what we see in PEI’s Land Protection Act

[12:32:50] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: I liked PEI’s idea. Not a bad option here.

Answer from Elizabeth May (Re: Tax exemptions and other options from the federal perspective): When we look at the whole fiscal framework and we look at tax in relation to climate, the first thing that needs to be said is that it makes no sense whatsoever to be spending billions of dollars in subsidies to fossil fuels when we’re supposed to be about carbon pricing. The first Prime Minister to commit to ending Canada’s fossil fuel subsidies was, believe it or not, Stephen Harper in 2009 at a meeting of the G20 in Cincinnati. Of course, the Liberals in 2015 pledged to eliminate fossil fuel subsidies, and again in 2019, and yet they keep going up. They’ve increased dramatically at the provincial level—I will leave it to Adam to speak to that. But, as Horgan has ploughed money into fracking and L&G, Trudeau has ploughed money into other L&G projects and new subsidies: obviously TMX because we bought it (as I define it that’s a subsidy). Catherin McKenna wasn’t sure if spending $16 billion on a pipeline was a subsidy or not. I will not dive too deeply into the subsidy question. I will just say we have to stop.

At the federal level… in terms of taxes, we need social justice, we need guaranteed liveable income, pharmacare, and a number of other projects, which will entail a change to our taxation structure. I would think looking at inheritance tax isn’t really enough; we need a wealth tax. We need to figure out a way to go after the offshore money that is hidden… looking at the tax structure there is a lot we could do. Raising carbon taxes by itself as a pledge, which Trudeau did on December 11, 2020, that we were going to go to $170/tonne by 2030, is certainly not a bad thing to do, but by itself it is meaningless because we have not yet got a plan to reduce GHGs within this decade such that we can hold on to 1.5°. Where there are a lot of words that could be used… I like to stick to one simple concept: 1.5° to stay alive. Past that, nothing much else matters. 

Answer from Adam Olsen (Re: Tax exemptions and other options from the provincial perspective):

Yeah, I have something to add: $12 billion for Site C Dam and $6 billion in direct subsidies… I could just add on to the subsidies, the taxpayer and rate payer subsidies. Yesterday what happened in the legislature left us speechless when a BC Liberal member stood up and said “thank god the BC Greens stood up and walked out of the House when we voted on a clause of the Income Tax Amendment Act or else the NDP would have been able to give more money to the L&G industry—there is something quite surreal about a BC Liberal standing up and [saying that]. 

This is part of the challenge that we face here, is that there are a lot of tax tools. In fact, a complete revision of the tax code in this country and in this province is something that we need to be taking a look at and exactly what it is we are incentivizing. There was a question earlier on [about speculation and vacancy tax] in the Trust area and the Gulf Islands. I would just say to this: there is a direct conflict in the housing taxes, for example, where we have had a perspective since WWII that housing is a commodity rather than as a place to create comfort and safety for families, so these are at odds. 

If I were to round out my comments on the decolonization of this place, it is about our mindset. It’s about our perspective. There is a whole pile of taxes we could use to incentivize the kind of behaviour that we want. No question about it. We could have a whole event just naming what those initiatives are. The initiative that you’re raising, Briony, is an important tool in an entire, full, comprehensive package to get the kind of outcomes that we are looking for. Why I focused on political will and the [colonial mindset in the legislature] is because, to get the support for those initiatives to be deeper than just the words on paper, the government means it, that the bureaucracy is willing to do something about it.

In question period, in 30 minutes, I am going to raise the idea of conservation financing as a.. primary tool to get the government to stop logging old growth and work with First Nations. There is a host of opportunities and a host of tools. What we need is the political will around the table to have the perspective that we need, built around resilience rather than short term vote buying schemes.

[12:33:26] From Erik Piikkila: Need to create Lead by First Nations New Local Co Management Groups that locally decide ecosystem and resource issues.  Working with each Local Co Management Group would be a Science, Social, & Economic Advisory Panel.

[12:34:02] From Erik Piikkila: We Bought ourselves an Edsel!!!!

[12:36:22] From Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: By the time we leave today, we need to have created a whole bunch of pilot ideas to work on together.  Maybe we need to make a workshop like this a regular occurrence to build this community of practice.

Answer from Elizabeth May:  Everything we do matters. The only bad choice is to do nothing. So, yes! Do everything you possibly can, but there aren’t going to be any refugia in the worst-case scenario. We actually have to go off fossil fuels as soon as possible or nothing else matters. Everything we do will matter, as long as we don’t lose sight of that.  

Answer from Deb Morrison: Everything that Elizabeth just said, and I’ve been really involved in both national and international level work both in Canada and the US around what we can do. There was a comment made earlier, I think Gary [Holman] made it, about public education, and empowerment work and that is not to be underrated. One of the reasons that governments are not brave enough is because public opinion behind them gets loud and uncertain. We need to unify public voices. One way to do that is to just blanket public community spaces and its best-done community-to-community, like this! Educating each other, talking to each other, working with each other. Those examples of what we actually do together and how we work together—writing about those and lifting those examples in every way possible—is something that is needed so that other communities can take that learning and not start at ground zero. So, the idea of a pilot [demonstrating] how we actually do that kind of work is critical. 

Yesterday morning I got an email from the UN… about how we are actually mobilizing the public toward climate actions. There is a new series of conversations happening right now in that space that are trying to see pilots, they are trying to look down to local levels and lift them to international levels so we can learn across contexts. So always, local/global interactions have to be happening all the time. 

[12:37:28] From Dirk Brinkman: Deb M. Thanks for setting (and just now sharing) the groundwork for Islands Trust to step into climate action. How ready is Island Trust for partnering with Indigenous communities?

[12:37:30] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: There is a lot of knowledge present today, we could work together to strengthen our messages by building them together and keeping this conversation in the public eye.

[12:38:32] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Maybe telling the story of co-benefits.

[12:39:03] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC UN level Action for Climate Empowerment Series https://unfccc.int/topics/education-youth/events-meetings/ace-activity-series-2021

[12:39:17] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources let us all take our momentum and go join a local movement https://www.fairycreekblockade.com/

[12:40:08] From Carrie, Cortes Community Forest: Seth Klein’s polling (in The Good War) says that voters are way ahead of the government on climate action and Green New Deal type solution. Why isn’t public opinion better reflected by the government?

[12:40:21] From Erik Piikkila: Right $60 Billion is Yearly Subsidies to O & G in Canada!!!

[12:40:48] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Carrie – so right! We know the public is ready for more and better.

[12:41:15] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Islands Trust has been in conversations with First Nations more intensely in the last two years as part of both reconciliation work and the Trust Policy Statement process. Hopefully, these conversations will expand ways we can work together that are co-defined and transformative.

[12:41:16] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: https://www.forestmarchbc.com/?fbclid=IwAR3xmo5TIa1N6MU-WpXWExjwEwlqqALpptT68TWMVtp-KQPWUvWmq0NbaKg

[12:41:19] From Pierre Mineau, SSI Conservancy: Can we turn the question to an ask for the specific pilot project we are here to talk about. Will any level of government float this pilot?

Answer from Gary Holman: Partnerships with First Nations, for example around Crown land, the National Marine Conservation Area. Elizabeth indicated in the chat that those discussions are underway and there needs to be more time. Specifically on Salt Spring, the Crown lands that have been designated “no logging” but with the caveat for First Nations interests. I have broached this with CRD Parks, I have broached it with Ruth Waldick and the Transition folks who are applying for funding for various pilot projects, so it’s on the radar. So that’s just one example that could involve First Nation’s in a partnership. Not just protecting, but managing. For example, a key concern here is fire risk. For folks speaking against the Trust initiative to better protect Coastal Douglas-fir—and I don’t think with accuracy—but basically suggest that protecting forest lands means you are increasing forest fire risk because we suppress fire. So, what is the solution then? You clear-cut the forest so you’re not increasing the risk of fire? But Crown land protection means management and also means managing that fire load, that fuel load on our protected Crown lands. There is a modest suggestion for the Gulf Islands: collaborating with First Nations on management and protection of Crown lands.

Answer from Elizabeth May: I just think there is a lot coming… I know I am a little off of nature-based solutions here, but I am left wondering where is that Just Transition Act? There were things we were promised that we need to make the transition we need to make. What we need to do now is more disruption than transition. It has to be quite rapid. I do think nature-based solutions will come. I tend to get down to a real nitty gritty level, I know the people who are in the Ministry of the Environment’s office and I have to say the smartest and most creative person is the one on the nature-based solutions file. I have more hope and expectation around getting some good, useful programs out of that. I am also very keen on the Indigenous protection and conservation area program… there is a lot coming down towards us on nature-based solutions. And, for this region, mitigation. We are going to see a lot more money for electric vehicles… for interties to make our electric grid work, the problem is we are not seeing consistency… between all the things that are being offered, they say “okay we are going to have $15 billion new spending on climate programs” … and then they say “okay, $17 billion on just TransCanada expansion. So, I do think we will see good things coming. But we have to remind ourselves to push for what’s needed. 

[12:41:25] From Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Carrie:  Squeaky wheel syndrome sadly

[12:42:28] From Carrie, Cortes Community Forest: Also, maybe support is broad but shallow.

[12:43:28] From Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: Yes, Carrie, Andrea Palframan on our board talks about the importance of telling stories to enlist ppl to make that support deep.

[12:44:02] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: @Carrie I have ideas about this issue. My experiences in government are that institutions are slower to change. However, constantly being in conversation with your local government folks and running for office is the most direct way to influence votes. Hold your local people accountable to their votes on different policies that are being moved and asking them to sponsor new motions to support this work.

[12:44:04] From Erik Piikkila: $25 Billion and Rising in Total Cost of Site C!!!!!!!

[12:48:22] From Jason Huthinson, Forest Carbon Initiative MFLNRO&RD : Could the Trust look at the Growing Canada’s Forests Program, put together a proposal that considers planting trees within parks, private lands, Nation Lands and Crown lands within the island communities a join proposal? A comprehensive proposal that works to support private landowners to plant trees on their properties (matched) and the regional district to support the planting of trees and work with the MOF to plant on the Crown forests in areas where trees are not growing? Working together in the vision and plan to draft a proposal.

[12:49:56] From David Haley: Jason – support this idea of working with the Growing Canada’s Forests Program.

[12:50:00] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Pilot: Collaborative effort across multi government effort to establish policy at needed scales to foster healthy and sustained forests and eelgrass beds.

[12:50:29] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: Jason could you please send info to islands2050@islandstrust.bc.ca so we can start a conversation?

[12:51:02] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: There is a program called Trees for Tomorrow, facilitated by the Hornby Conservancy, that is working on getting trees planted across Islands on a smaller scale–so there are programs happening around this concept but no concerted more centralized effort.

[12:52:00] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Not by any one government but by all in collaboration and conversation. This seems critical to do with First Nations governments as foundational collaborators.

[12:52:24] From Erik Piikkila: 2 million acres in the E & N Land Grant!!!!

[12:53:11] From Bryan Young – Chair, Transition Salt Spring: We have a potential pilot here involving our water district with the Salt Spring Island Conservancy and others to protect our most critical watershed for potable water.  These consortia will be as complex and as varied as the groups involved which is great.  The cast of characters here could easily come up with several! :-)

[12:53:22] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: thank you!!!

[12:54:16] From briannathorne: Hello everyone, my name is Brianna. I have the honour and privilege of mentoring Quw’utsun youth involved with the Xwaaqw’um and Stqeeye’ education society. We have enjoyed participating in this forum. Huy ch q’u to each and everyone. We would be very interested in connecting with anyone who is willing to share in their areas of expertise. My email is daniellethorne1979@gmail.com. Thank you again for this wonderful day.

[12:54:20] From Dilani Hippola, Islands Trust: Thanks so much to everyone who coordinated this great conversation and to our elected officials for true leadership.

[12:54:41] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: Thank you Everyone.

[12:54:46] From Elizabeth May MP: Sorry everyone. I have to got to Zoom parliament and Finance Committee.

[12:55:02] From Dirk Brinkman: Site C is now an obvious afforestation site–7000 ha. Decommissioning the Bennet Dam is the next afforestation opportunity-200,000 ha.  stopping the methane emissions from the still sunken forests.

[13:02:16] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: National Park here on Pender is doing a pilot on restoration of forest structure.

[13:02:42] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Love to see how we could scale that and engage in deeper restoration projects on deforested land.

[13:03:52] From Gary Holman, CRD Director: And/or apply to Crown  and other protected lands that are primarily second growth?

[13:05:02] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: PEPÁḴEṈ HÁUTW̱ Foundation – an organization coordinated with the W̱SÁNEĆ Leadership Council is doing restoration work.

[13:09:29] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Great example https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/w%CC%B1sanec-ethnobotany-trail-plants-british-columbia/

[13:10:49] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: I agree but I also don’t want to put all the responsibility on First Nations, we also have to ensure all settler colonial folks in the region are empowered to act and learn about this work. All current policy makers need to do this work even faster.

[13:12:02] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Yes, really good point Deb.

[13:16:34] From Briony Penn, Salt Spring: A benefit of aggregating projects is that landowners and first nations can both share the costs and benefits of the projects.

[13:18:06] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC:  What does having forests managed as learning spaces for diverse cultural and social values offer us? How could we organize for that to foster local economies?

[13:21:13] From Shirley : This is an interesting endeavour by a community saving the forests around their town (Cumberland): https://www.cumberlandforest.com/

[13:25:15] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: higher level policy with no flesh on bones (yet): https://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/campaign-campagne/bes-seb/index-eng.html

[13:29:27] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: carbonstewards@transitionsaltspring.com

[13:30:18] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Do you support a blue green carbon project within the CDF? If so, how can you help? If not, what are your thoughts on how we can provide incentives to steward our forests and marine estuaries?

[13:30:20] From Angela Spooner, Blue Carbon Resources: absolutely support. Create a template for other communities!

[13:30:29] From Matthew Robertson, Brinkman Reforestation Ltd.: Great to see you Malcom – Matt!

[13:30:45] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: www.transitionsaltspring.com

[13:30:56] From Steve Wright, Trustee South Pender (S’DAYES): Thanks for organizing this and to all the participants. Very helpful and educational. Very impressed with all the efforts to put this together.

[13:31:25] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: https://transitionsaltspring.com/donate/

[13:31:34] From Gary Holman CRD Director: Yes, to a pilot, I would suggest in partnership with First Nations, on Crown and protected lands. I have and will continue to discuss this with CRD Parks as one possible partner.

[13:31:37] From Shauna Doll, Raincoast Conservation Foundation: Thanks for being here Steve and continuing to be an environmental leader within the Islands Trust!

[13:31:38] From Darlene Gage, Transition Salt Spring: Think about making a donation to support these efforts.

[13:31:58] From Pierre Mineau, SSI Conservancy: Excellent workshop. One of the best I have attended …live or online. Well done!

[13:32:03] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Thank you for your work.

[13:32:21] From Karlis Hawkins, Transition Salt Spring (Marine Research Intern) : I support carbon stewardship in the CDF, but it depends on how it’s organized. Ideally it would be Indigenous led so that values other than carbon sequestration are recognized (ex: biodiversity, reciprocal relationships, passing down Traditional Ecological Knowledge to youth, traditional foods, etc.)

[13:32:34] From Deb Morrison, Islands Trust, Trustee and Chair TPC: Have a great day, stay well.

[13:32:44] From Carol: I certainly support a Blue/Green Carbon Project.  Not sure what I can add.  I am part of a few grass roots climate action groups and could certainly  pass on work being done

[13:32:57] From Anil Shrestha, UBC: Very positive. Being a researcher and working at an academic institution, I can collaborate and help to generate knowledge, identify knowledge gaps and lesson learned/best practices. Thank you so much for this great program. Anil

[13:33:05] From Gary Holman, CRD Director: Thanks to the organizers and participants.

[13:33:10] From Doug Fenton, Islands Trust Trustee: Huy cg q’a, huy ch q’a…looking fwd to the discussion/s

[13:33:23] From briannathorne: Huy tseep q’u[14:01:27] From Ruth Waldick, Director TSS: I think that the carbon can be a short-term step to allow the time to create a marine restoration/farming project to get set up. Then, this marine farming (kelp) could become another source of revenue and food, in addition to the other benefits and c-revenue.

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